BigMoneyJim posted a comment to the blog a few weeks ago (this article was posted in April 2008) acknowledging that he is a regular at Greaney’s Goon Board but arguing that “the funny thing” is that there are 4,000 more posts at that board with my name on them than there are with his name on them. It’s true — I talk to Goons! My guess is that there are some others who find this odd. Hence this list of reasons for why I post at a spot on the internet that I have on numerous occasions referred to as a “Stinkhole.”
Reason #1 for Why I Talk to Goons — They Are My Friends.
Most of the Goons were friends of mine in the days before I “crossed” Greaney by posting honestly on the safe withdrawal rate topic. I do not believe that one highly dishonest and highly abusive individual should be able to require me to seek out new friends. I like the Goons!
I don’t like their reliance on deception, intimidation and word games to destroy Retire Early boards. But it does not seem right to me to pretend that goonishness is all that they are about. A good number of the Goons have posted constructively on other topics or at other times. Some even argued in support of the idea of permitting honest posting on safe withdrawal rates in the days before their turn to The Dark Side.
I hate goonishness more than anyone else in the community. I don’t think it follows that I need to hate the particular individuals who post as Goons as people.
Reason #2 for Why I Talk to Goons — There are Some Diamonds Mixed in with the Manure.
The vast majority of posts you see at the Goon Board are hateful, mean-spirited, low, smelly stuff. Not everything posted there fits that description, however.
I engaged in some edifying correspondence with Scott Burns not too long ago that came about as the result of me learning in a Goon Board thread what he had said in a column about safe withdrawal rates. A poster named “Schroeder” has put up several threads on Robert Shiller that contained interesting information bits; for example, there was one that said that Shiller has a 60 percent stock allocation today (mostly in non-U.S. stocks).
I founded the Retire Early Community to create a valuable learning resource for all of us. The sad reality is that today all of our boards have either been burned to the ground or ethically compromised. One of the drawbacks of this destruction is that we need to wade through mounds of manure to get to the good stuff. Is it worth it? Every now and again, that payoff is big enough that it is.
Reason #3 for Why I Talk to Goons — We Need to Keep the Lines of Communication Open.
I have never viewed the ban on honest posting on safe withdrawal rates and other valuation-related investing topics to be a permanent thing. The idea that there will never again be a place on the internet where people will engage in honest discussions of how to put together a successful Retire Early plan strikes me as more than a little absurd. If the ban on honest posting is not going to last forever, it follows that someday it is going to fall. It seems to me that we all should be doing all that we can to see that that happens as quickly as possible.
We need to keep the lines of communication open. The vast majority of the community has made it clear on numerous occasions that it wants to permit honest posting. The Goons have made it equally clear that they will fight the idea to the death. I occasionally use my posts at the Goon Board to advance ideas for taking things in the direction that the vast majority of us has made clear we would like to go.
Reason #4 for Why I Talk to Goons — I Don’t Believe that Running is the Answer.
The reason why the small number of Goons has been able to take over a number of once thriving boards is that the majority that favors civil and honest posting is far less intense about its preferences than the relatively small number of Goons are about theirs. We all like the idea of civility. The Goons hate the idea and they hate it with an undying passion. Too many have concluded that the way to respond to abusive posting is to abandon the board at which it appears.
My experience is that when the best people leave a board it only makes the situation worse. My sense is that the Goons love it when posters of intelligence and integrity announce their departure. It is my view that it is those who build a board with their years of constructive posting who truly “own” it. We have built a number of amazing learning resources during our first eight years together. I think we need to learn how to defend them from attack.
We need to do that without getting into the muck with the Goons, to be sure. I try with my posting at the Goon board to lead by example by showing my fellow Normals how this can be done. I often object to the Campaign of Terror. I have never put forward a single abusive post of my own. I think that’s the combination that will win us our boards back in days to come.
Reason #5 for Why I Talk to Goons — Our Findings Need to Be Tested.
There are four proofs of our investing findings of recent years. One, they are in accord with common sense (this cannot be said of ideas rooted in the Efficient Market Disease). Two, the historical data backs them up. Three, a number of the best-informed experts have put forward statements in accord with the fundamental principles that direct our work. Four, thousands of highly motivated investors have been unable to identify any serious flaws in close to six years of discussions.
I don’t want to lose access to the fruits of community discussions during the time in which the ban on honest posting remains in place. The Goons post dishonestly in the vast majority of the posts they put forward. But if they ever came up with any legitimate objections to any of our findings, I am confident that they would post about them at the Goon Board. That information is valuable to us (and it is helpful too to know that they have not been able to come up with anything of significance thus far).
Reason #6 for Why I Talk to Goons — A Doctor Need to Get Over His Fear of Blood.
I am as grossed out by the ugliness of the Goon mentality as anyone. My guess is that I am more grossed out than a good number. The reality, however, is that we all need to learn about what it is that makes the Goons tick.
I am convinced that we all have a bit of that ugliness inside us. I held back from posting what I knew about safe withdrawal rates for several years. Why? Was I not a coward? Did I not worry too much what people would think about me if I posted honestly about how long-term stock investing works?
If we want to heal ourselves of Goon Disease, we need to roll up our sleeves and mess around a bit in the muck. By learning what makes the Goons tick, we learn what to avoid in the formation of our own investing strategies.
What is it that they are afraid of? Why are word games so appealing and comforting to them? How is it that emotion comes to overwhelm their reason in the investing area when it presumably does not do so in many other areas of their lives? These are the sort of questions that I believe that we can learn about not by ignoring the Goons but by examining them and seeking to come to terms with their destructive (and self-destructive) drives.
Reason #7 for Why I Talk to Goons — It Is Unhealthy and Unnatural to Ignore the Goon Phenomenon.
John Bogle ignores the Goons that post at the Lindauerheads board. He even gave his permission for that board to use his name in its official title. He also ignores the Goons that post at The New Vanguard Diehards board. We never heard a peep out of him during the two years in which the Lindaurheads were burning The Old Vanguard Diehards Board to the ground. The only public statement that I am aware of Bogle having put forward on this matter is a statement that he put to the Lindauerheads board asking “Why can’t we all just get along?”
I find this exceedingly odd. To ignore the Goons is like walking over dozens of dead bodies on the way to work and not saying anything. I mean, come on. Today’s dominant model for understanding how stock investing works assumes that investors are 100 percent rational — and yet this! People need to look at this and come to terms with it and come to understand what it means.
To act like nothing exceedingly weird is going on is itself a form of sickness, in my assessment.
Reason #8 for Why I Talk to Goons — It is Critical that Investors with Different Viewpoints Communicate with Each Other.
It is critical that investors with different viewpoints communicate with each other. I am strongly opposed to the idea that momentum investors should only talk with momentum investors and value investors should only talk with value investors and bulls should only talk with bulls and bears should only talk with bears. It is through the interactions of different ideas that learning takes place and advances are achieved.
I don’t know that one can call my discussions with the Goons “communications” in the way that most people think of the word. I talk, they shout insults. Still, I am trying. I believe that trying is important. I believe that by trying to communicate with people who are not willing to engage in communication I develop reaching-out strengths that I will be able to use to communicate with more reasonable humans. I sure hope so.
I talk to Goons. Say a prayer for my soul, fellow Passion Saver. And say a prayer of thanksgiving that it’s me and not you who found himself walking this long and lonesome (and scary!) road!